ClonesGame.com Forums

[Simon]

Hi folks,

[Edit: The intro post doesn't apply any more to version 1.01 or later, see my 2nd response.]

Clones has great usability for the most part, but it falls a bit short of its high standards when it comes to scrolling. However, scrolling is what a player does most often, and it must be done super-fast in multiplayer. I'd like to discuss the current methods and possible improvements.

Right-click scrolling: This is the main way of scrolling IMO, as it's the fastest and easiest to trigger. It has the serious disadvantage that you can't access the whole level without re-grabbing the screen. Most levels are big enough that re-grabs are necessary. This is tedious.

I really wish for infinite mouse motion when scrolling with the right mouse button. It doesn't matter if the level scrolls with or against the mouse direction, and it doesn't matter if the mouse cursor stays fixed on the screen. All I ask for is the omission of the annoying re-grabbing.

If I could implement a single thing myself, it would be this optimization of the right-click scrolling. I did it in my own game by fixing the mouse cursor position while the right button is held, moving the map only, scrolling into the same direction as the mouse is moved into. The mouse will only move if the screen can't scroll any further. [Edit: See also Tom's reply for clarifcation; the mouse movement controls the screen position directly, not the scrolling velocity.] This is a common way of speed scrolling, the Settlers series and other games with big maps have this as well. But as said, any solution will be fine!

[Tab] scrolling: While you hold the [Tab] key, the game shows a minimap, and you can click inside to scroll. This moves the screen instantly, but the minimap doesn't appear instantly; instead it scrolls into view. So, this way of scrolling isn't as fast as it could be. It's great otherwise.

Screen edge scrolling: This is too slow to be useful. An option about its speed may come in handy. For me, it'll still be less precise and thus slower than unlimited right-click scrolling, even if I could set the speed. But I think geoo uses the edge scrolling in L++ more than the hold-right-button scrolling, so there's a target audience for such an option. ;-)

Clone movie strip: This is a very good addition to see the current workers, it doesn't take up much space and offers a good overview of the workers. I should really watch it more, especially if I have workers on different ends of the level. I believe that it's not enough to watch the whole spread-out crowd, however, so it's not a replacement to super-efficient main ways to scroll.

Summary: I really appreciate the great usability optimizations you've already built into the game, but please think about infinite right-click scrolling.

Also, what's everyone else's favorite method to scroll?

-- Simon

[tom]

An option to control the speed of the screen edge scrolling is definitely something that will be added.

When pressing [Tab] to show the minimap, yes it does drops into view. This animation was added for eye candy, but I can make it an option to display instantly (if the demand is there?).

I loaded up L++ to see how the right click scrolling was implemented there. While playing around I noticed that it was implemented differently than what I thought you described. I thought that when you right click, the cursor stays fixed and the direction of your mouse relative to the click down position controls the velocity of the scrolling in that direction. I know some games do this and it does have its advantages in that you don't have to repeatedly click drag to scroll large distances. You can also imagine it as instant edge scrolling (without having the move the cursor to the edge of the screen). L++ scrolling is a scaled linear translation of the mouse movement. The advantage of controlling translation instead of velocity is that one can very efficiently scroll to specific locations in the level without any dependency on time. I don't see why this can't be added to Clones as an option. The current scrolling method, I think, is going to remain the default as it is most intuitive approach (and is required for touch screen mode).

Another feature I also noticed in L++ is the double edge scroll speed when you right click while edge scrolling. I really like this.

[Simon]

Yes, for a touch screen, the current right-click scrolling is by far the best method. It is also intuitive for mouse users. You're right with keeping this as the default option, in case an alternative method will find its way into the game.

I don't use the minimap right now, but if I did, I'd prefer the minimap to instantly appear when I press [Tab]. The same map location would always be shown on the same place on the screen during [Tab], that might aid navigation; and the human eye wouldn't get distracted by additional movement of visual elements. But it's a design decision after all, usability versus optics.

Double speed edge scrolling comes directly from the original Lemmings games, and most users find it very nice, indeed. Together with an option about the general edge-scrolling speed, this could make any edge scroller happy.

Thanks for looking at the L++'s RMB scrolling, and finding that it allows for really fast navigation! I made a small edit to the first post, because you've described it much better than me -- it simply moves the map instead of the cursor, by the very same distance and without any scrolling velocity while one doesn't move the mouse. I hope that I (or we ) can show its usefulness to a few more developers, maybe this method will appear as an alternative option in Clones someday...

-- Simon

PS: Also thanks for the games today!

[rt]

Also, what's everyone else's favorite method to scroll?

It depends on the size of the map. On a level such as "Beach" i normally scroll with the right-click drag and try to position the screen so that i can see all important areas. I seldom use the minimap on this level unless i just want to quickly peek to see if one of my clones (or my opponents clones) is where i expect it to be. In thinking about the minimap more, i'm not sure if scrolling it into view is most useful. I'll do some testing on this. The old version was static, but we animated it to look slicker, perhaps without considering how it affects gameplay. On larger levels the minimap is vital, there is no other way to cover the distance effectively.

Your suggestions are good and i think we can find a way to give everyone the option to scroll in the way they find most efficient. We want to allow a high degree of competitive fairness, so removing any obstacles in the gui or "luck" from the gameplay are very important.

[Simon]

The current demo has an option called positive scrolling, and it does just what I proposed for the right-click scrolling. On top of that, you can configure the speed of any method.

I may have already said it in chat, but I wish to thank the developers publicly again -- for consideration of the alternative scrolling method, and their quick implementation. This is such a great addition to the game, it has removed the only usability bottleneck I've found after testing the demo for many hours. The new scrolling feels very slick, I use it all the time!

-- Simon

[geoo]

I've never used the right-click scrolling up until yesterday (not in L++ either), and from merely this one session I almost exclusively use it now.
The factor 1.0 (currently in L++) is way too slow for me, as is the clones maximum (3.0), but with tom's help I could set it higher to 9.0 in player's xml file, which works very nicely for me (my mouse is set to be very insensitive).
I think I'll stop relying on the border scrolling now, using this instead. I don't think I'll make use of the minimap scrolling, as the right-click scrolling seems to be just as flexible, and easier to invoke.

[tom]

I'd have to give Simon credit for pushing for this alternative right click scrolling feature. I now use it instead of the default for two reasons: the scroll speed is adjustable, and the cursor remains in the same place allowing for faster clone selection after the scrolling is done. I'm just wondering if it should be made the default?

[Simon]

Haven't answered for some time... I'd say, yep, it's intuitive enough to have it as the default option. But it helps if more people share their opinion on this.

For touchscreen controls, the drag scrolling is always better. Touchscreen is a separate option though, so it doesn't affect the standard setting for the scrolling option.

-- Simon

[rt]

I still prefer the touchscreen-style drag. I think it's what most people would expect and i don't feel it affects my ability to select clones. With the new windows 7 touchscreen laptops it seems more people will be using software in this way. Even google maps was updated to have a velocity when drag-scrolling to be more iPhoney


btw, great forum avatar Simon